[PacoMartin]

The only number that I am sure of was that Subaru sold a total of 76,774 Tribecas. As it is extremely unlikely that Subaru will ever produce a 6 cylinder vehicle again the number sold in the past has no value to competitors.

As I understand it, the Subaru 6 cylinder engine was quite a nice piece of engineering. But presumably most people don't know that since they sold so few over the decades.

 

[PacoMartin]

broken English but a lot of enthusiasm

"There's no replacement for displacement."

• 22.8 mpg 3.6L 6 cylinder 2019 Legacy
• 22.3 mpg 3.6L 6 cylinder 2019 Outback

In comparison mpg for the present crop of 4 cylinders (model year 2022) combined city/highway

mpg​	Eng Displ​	​	Carline​	Transmission​	Air Aspiration ​
31.5​	2.0​	L,​	IMPREZA 4-Door​	Automatic​	Naturally Aspirated​
31.1​	2.0​	L,​	IMPREZA 5-Door​	Automatic​	Naturally Aspirated​
30.4​	2.0​	L,​	IMPREZA SPORT 4-Door​	Automatic​	Naturally Aspirated​
30.2​	2.0​	L,​	IMPREZA SPORT 5-Door​	Automatic​	Naturally Aspirated​
30.1​	2.5​	L,​	LEGACY​	Automatic​	Naturally Aspirated​
29.9​	2.0​	L,​	CROSSTREK AWD​	Automatic​	Naturally Aspirated​
29.4​	2.5​	L,​	CROSSTREK AWD​	Automatic​	Naturally Aspirated​
28.8​	2.5​	L,​	OUTBACK AWD​	Automatic​	Naturally Aspirated​
28.7​	2.5​	L,​	FORESTER AWD​	Automatic​	Naturally Aspirated​
26.9​	2.4​	L,​	LEGACY​	Automatic​	Turbocharged​
26.2​	2.5​	L,​	FORESTER WILDERNESS AWD​	Automatic​	Naturally Aspirated​
25.8​	2.4​	L,​	OUTBACK AWD​	Automatic​	Turbocharged​
23.5​	2.4​	L,​	OUTBACK WILDERNESS AWD​	Automatic​	Turbocharged​
23.1​	2.4​	L,​	ASCENT AWD​	Automatic​	Turbocharged​
22.1​	2.4​	L,​	ASCENT LIMITED/TOURING/ONYX AWD​	Automatic​	Turbocharged​
21.1​	2.4​	L,​	WRX​	Automatic​	Turbocharged​
26.4​	2.0​	L,​	IMPREZA 5-Door​	Manual​	Naturally Aspirated​
26.3​	2.0​	L,​	IMPREZA 4-Door​	Manual​	Naturally Aspirated​
25.3​	2.0​	L,​	IMPREZA SPORT 5-Door​	Manual​	Naturally Aspirated​
24.9​	2.0​	L,​	CROSSTREK AWD​	Manual​	Naturally Aspirated​
21.8​	2.4​	L,​	WRX​	Manual​	Turbocharged​

 

[PacoMartin]

A lot of people don't realize this, but there was a beige time when Subaru was finished experimenting with 6 cyldinder XT and SVX (3 model years from 1998 to 200) and they weren't turbocharging (6 model years from 1995 to 2001) anything. In model year 2000, every vehicle was AWD and had a 4 cylinder 2.5 liter naturally aspirated 165 hp engine and a choice of 4 speed automatic or 5 speed manual. There was a handful of 2.2 liter 145 hp engines left over from the 1999 model year. At the time the Outback was called a Legacy wagon and Legacy and Outback sales were not reported seperately. US Subaru sales for the year 2000 were:

• 56,605 Foresters
• 19,220 Imprezas
• 96,391 Legacy and Legacy Wagon
• 172,216 Total Subaru sales in the US in 2000

The only real attraction of a Subaru in the year 2000 was a reliable AWD for a good price. Subaru's famous "What Do I Know?" advertising premiered in 2000 featuring Tennis star Martina Navratilova , Golfers Juli Inkster, Meg Mallon and Olympic skier Diann Roffe-Steinrotter.

Subaru US sales did not break 200,000 until the year 2009 (obviously the advertising agency claims credit as they began the Love Campaign began in 2008). Perhaps the increasing CAFE standards will force Subaru back into that beige past.

 

[PacoMartin]

We had 3 H6 Subaru's: a 2002 VDC Outback 3.0, 2006 Tribeca 3.0 and a 2010 Legacy 3.6R.

Why did you stop buying the 6 cylinder? The Legacy/Outback 3.6 liter was produced up until model year 2019. Have you switched to the turbocharged 4 cylinders? How do the 3.6 liter 6 cylinder and the 2.4 liter tubrocharged engine compare?

It is a clear fact that the Subaru Ascent is being totally eclipsed by the Hyundai/Kia Palisade, Telluride and Carnival which all use traditional naturally aspirated 6 cylinder engines. Do you think the Ascent would be more popular and get better reviews if it used a 6 cylinder naturally aspirated engine?

 

[PacoMartin]

We had .. 2006 Tribeca 3.0

(part 1)The Tribeca had 76,774 US sales over the lifetime of the vehicle while the Ascent had 81,958 sales in 2019 (it's first model year). But the Ascent sales have been overtaken by the Hyundai/Kia Tellurde and Palisades which was released a few months after the Ascent.

As a former Tribeca owner do you think the Ascent would have done better with a 6 cylinder engine, or do you think it's problems are elsewhere?

(part 2) What do you make of the following quote? Why do you think the Subaru BRZ buyers prefer manual transmission so much more than the Toyota 86 buyers? The article is unclear if they are discussing US take rates or Global take rates.

Subaru says the BRZ has a 75% take rate for the manual transmission, which actually might be one of if not the highest in the US auto industry (for cars that offer both gearbox types, natch). Interestingly, with the Toyota 86, the take rate is only 46%, and with the Mazda MX-5 Miata, it's 58%.
Aug 30, 2021 2022 Subaru BRZ keeps the simple sports car alive

 

[PacoMartin]

I think maybe the BRZ was something a potential WRX owner went to instead.

The starting MSRP of a WRX is only 4% higher than the starting MSRP of a BRZ so it's not like people have to settle on a BRZ because they can't afford the WRX. It seems to me that there are very few cross shoppers. You are either attracted to one or the other.

Some of the statistics in the annual reports suggest that the WRX is a little more US focused than the BRZ. One year the WRX sold 71% of the export units to the US, while at the same time only 55% of the BRZ export units were sold in the US.

 

[PacoMartin]

Don't forget the first H6 3.3L version was the Subaru SVX I've seen a few up close but have never driven one. I always thought that was a cool car.

The XT started as a turbocharged car, but they had the first Subaru 6 cylinder H6 2.7L, but the SVX is more of a collector's item today (although it was not a great seller
XP6 Subaru advertisement from mid 1980s

2010	2019	3.6	L,	Outback
2010	2019	3.6	L,	Legacy
2005	2009	3.0	L,	Outback
2001	2009	3.0	L,	Legacy
2008	2014	3.6	L,	Tribeca
2006	2007	3.0	L,	Tribeca
1992	1997	3.3	L,	SVX
1988	1991	2.7	L,	XT

 

[PacoMartin]

Subaru says a whopping 85 percent of WRX sales are 6-speed manual transmission models, and only fifteen percent are for the CVT automatic.

U.S. Buyers Still Overwhelmingly Choose a Manual for the Subaru BRZ and WRX ByAlanis King 5/22/19
This article from three years ago says 90% manual transmission.

I think in general M/T sales in the US are under 3% for sedans.

 

[PacoMartin]

Yes you are right, I always think the XT was the Turbo motor only.

Turbo for three model years, 1985-1987 then 6 cylinder for four model years, 1988-1991, then SVX H6 3.3L for for six model years 1992-1997. Then comes Subaru's three year beige period where they gave up on performance vehicles all together and had no turbocharged or 6 cylinder vehicles.

Which takes us back full circle to the original question, how many 6 cylinders were sold in the US alltogether? It seems very unlikely that Subaru will re-introduce the 6 cylinder vehicle, so that data can't be business sensitive anymore. AFAIK Subaru has never released that data.

As I said earlier the only hard number released by Subaru of America is they sold 76,774 Tribecas. So it is theoretically possible they could have sold anywhere from a quarter million to a million 6 cylinders over the life of the company.

 

[PacoMartin]

secondary question would be is Subaru going to restore the 3 cylinder? The Justy had only 73 hp, but with turbocharging almost anything is possible. The new engine in the Nissan Rogue is 201 hp and it is a 1.5 L 3-cylinder turbocharged engine.
Actually my guess here is NO!

Here's Why 2022 Will Be Nissan's Last Year in Business Scotty gives his opinion on this new engine!

1.2 L, 3 cyl, Automatic (variable gear ratios), Regular Gasoline
FWD
1989 Subaru Justy 296 grams/mile
1990 Subaru Justy 296 grams/mile
1991 Subaru Justy 296 grams/mile
1992 Subaru Justy 296 grams/mile
1993 Subaru Justy 296 grams/mile

AWD
1990 Subaru Justy 317 grams/mile
1991 Subaru Justy 329 grams/mile
1992 Subaru Justy 329 grams/mile
1993 Subaru Justy 329 grams/mile

Impreza gen 5 for comparison
2022 Subaru Impreza 4-Door 2.0 L, 4 cyl, Automatic (AV-S7), Regular Gasoline 280 grams/mile
2022 Subaru Impreza 5-Door 2.0 L, 4 cyl, Automatic (AV-S7), Regular Gasoline 284 grams/mile
2022 Subaru Impreza Sport 4-Door 2.0 L, 4 cyl, Automatic (AV-S7), Regular Gasoline 291 grams/mile
2022 Subaru Impreza Sport 5-Door 2.0 L, 4 cyl, Automatic (AV-S7), Regular Gasoline 292 grams/mile
.
2022 Subaru Impreza 5-Door 2.0 L, 4 cyl, Manual 5-spd, Regular Gasoline 335 grams/mile
2022 Subaru Impreza 4-Door 2.0 L, 4 cyl, Manual 5-spd, Regular Gasoline 337 grams/mile
2022 Subaru Impreza Sport 5-Door 2.0 L, 4 cyl, Manual 5-spd, Regular Gasoline 351 grams/mile

Nissan Rogue for comparison
2022 Nissan Rogue AWD 1.5 L, 3 cyl, Automatic (AV-S8), Turbo, Regular Gasoline 287 grams/mile
2022 Nissan Rogue AWD SL/Platinum 1.5 L, 3 cyl, Automatic (AV-S8), Turbo, Regular Gasoline 288 grams/mile

You can see the potential. Nissan Rogue AWD with 3 cylinders has roughly the same CO2 emission rate as the Subaru Impreza with 4 cylinders, but 201 hp instead of 152 hp. But I still don't think Subaru is headed in this direction. We would have heard some rumors.

 

[PacoMartin]

The Subaru Justy engine did not look like a Boxer engine.

Many of the automakers are going to go to three cylinder turbocharged (except Mirage) engines.

1. Mitsubishi Mirage (naturally aspirated)
2. Buick Encore (turbocharged)
3. Chevrolet Trailblazer (turbocharged)
4. Ford Bronco Sport (turbocharged)
5. Ford Escape (turbocharged)
6. MINI Cooper (turbocharged)
7. Nissan Rogue (turbocharged)

And of course for 2023 we will have the GR Corolla, which is almost certain to increase interest in turbocharged 3 cylinder engines.

My guess is they're going to sink more of their R&D money into the EV Market before they go the three cylinder route again.

Actually, I hope that Subaru puts all their research money into EVs. I think they should replace the Ascent, the XT Legacy and XT Outback with EVs, and unfortunately I think the handwriting is on the wall for the internal combustion engine WRX.

I hope that Subaru leaves the FB20D and the FB25D engines unmodified, but I doubt that I will get my wish. Subaru is probably going to turbocharge or hybridize them. Given their membership into the Toyota Automotive Group, I would say hybrid is a solid bet.

 

[PacoMartin]

I hope that Subaru leaves the FB20D and the FB25D engines unmodified, but I doubt that I will get my wish.

The Tribeca sold 76,774 vehicles during it's lifetime, and I am sorry to say that I think the Solterra is not going to exceed that amount. There are just too many srikes against it. The mess with the lug nuts followed by the loss of the $7500 tax incentives. The specs on the Solterra are just not awe-inspiring for them to handle competition from VW for vehicles that are equal in performance and lower priced (VW still qualifies for $7500).

Without strong Solterra sales to lower CAFE, I think that Subaru has little choice but to replace the FB25 with the CB18 (which stands for Concentration/Compact Boxer) sold in Japan.

• The CB18 Bore and stroke are 80.6 mm × 88.0 mm. Rated output power is 170 hp at 5,200–5,600 RPM and torque is 220 lb⋅ft at 1,600–3,600 RPM (~39 mpg) turbocharged
• The FB25D Bore and stroke are 94.0 mm × 90.0 mm. Rated output power is 182 hp at 5800 rpm and 176 lb⋅ft at 4400 rpm (28.7-30.1 mpg | Wilderness 26.2 mpg)

Although the CB18 has a much better torque curve it has lower hp and may not sell as well.

 

[PacoMartin]

The old saying of "People buy HP but drive torque" still holds true.

Torque wins races on Sunday, but horsepower sells cars on Monday.

A Forester Sport with a CB18 1.8-liter direct injection turbocharged flat-4 engine was introduced in October 2020 for the Japanese domestic market.
The JDM Forester engine produces 174 hp at 5,200-5,600 rpm and 221 lb-ft at 1,600-3,600 rpm.
The Forester in North America produces 182 hp at 5,8000 rpm and 176 lb-ft at 4,400 rpm.

Subaru Teases a "New SUV" for September 15 (in 10 days) debut in the US. Most speculation is around a new generation Crosstrek, but it could be the Forester Sport.